Officer Dave Berry, Stanford MBA
“It was hard to get over the concept in my mind that being a cop was not an appropriate career choice for someone who has degrees from top schools.”
Dave Berry is one of the most trust worthy people I know. You sense it immediately when you meet him. He was also one of the “brainiest” of the Stanford MBA classmates that I got to know. Coupled with an intense work ethic and drive to learn and a likeable nature, he could have succeeded at anything. To walk away from Goldman Sachs and all the opportunities in business school for a job with the South San Francisco Police Department concerned some of his closest friends and family. Dave says the decision took “mental anguish” that he likens to what he imagines someone gay coming out to a family friend might experience.
Why Law Enforcement, and Why Investment Banking
Jung: How did you figure out what you wanted to do?
Dave: For me it was a lifelong journey. I grew up with organizations where law enforcement officials were really respected. They were seen as providing an important service. It was something that challenged mind and body and interpersonal skills. So I was really interested in law enforcement from the high school age. I was a pretty high academic achiever and so I got it in my head that if you were sort of the more brainy type, you needed to go into the federal law enforcement, the FBI, DEA, and that was the path I was more interested in.
Jung: In college, that’s what you wanted to do?
Dave: I remember I talked to a recruiter in law enforcement who said I needed to get some work experience. I majored in political science because I thought it was interesting and I thought I might want to go to law school. I went into investment banking because I had developed an interest in international affairs and opportunities came up to get involved with banks doing international work.
Jung: You were doing work with Latin America while you were at Goldman Sachs?
Dave: I spoke Spanish and Portuguese, so I did a lot of work working with Latin American companies and that was really interesting. It was what I was looking for in certain ways at the time. I got to see more of the world.
Unhappy With Investment Banking
Jung: So overall you liked it? You were happy as a banker?
Dave: I wasn’t happy. I’m glad in retrospect that I had that experience. And there were times when I thought I could do it for a while, but overall I was an unhappy person because it didn’t jive with what I thought was important in life. I grew up in a blue collar family and I always respected the more tangible kind of work ethic. With investment banking there is some tangible gratification when you close a deal, you get to be part of a transaction, but overall it wasn’t clear to me what purpose I was serving as an investment banker or what I was really doing for society. I’m not saying I’m Mr. Altruistic, but I didn’t feel like I was personally contributing to anything in particular other than helping out the people I was working for.
There was also the lifestyle. They weren’t exaggerating about working 80-plus hour work weeks. My life became very one-dimensional. Being far from my family in California, I wanted to be close to my family and that was kind of an issue. I think when you’re that deeply involved in something, you want that to be something you like and you want to fit with what you do. I’m sure I’m not the only one that did this, but when you’re that involved with something you start to start to reshape your goals and your image of your life to fit that. So I started thinking maybe I’ll stick with business or finance, but the federal law enforcement was still on my mind.
The Decision to Get an MBA at Stanford
Jung: Did you go to business school to figure that out?
Dave: I did it as a hedge. I’m interested in law enforcement, but what if I don’t like it? I need to go to business school or law school where I’ll have a credential to fall back on. When I was drafting my personal statement, why do you want to go to law school? I realized I really don’t want to be a lawyer, so I changed courses and got into business school at Stanford, which was great and it allowed me to be close to my family.
Jung: What was your long-term vision at the time?
Dave: I wanted to get a credential. That was the main goal of going to business school – get some useful applicable skills and broaden my exposure to the business arena to see if something else would appeal to me outside of the world of investment banking. I was still wanting to fit my life into the business world.
Personal Growth at Stanford Business School
Jung: I’m waiting for you to get to the part where you met empty soulless people in the MBA program.
Dave: Quite the opposite! That was more than anything else in my life a great personal growth experience that ultimately gave me the courage to make the change I wanted to make. I met all these really great people doing a lot of different things, but generally focused around the business world. It made it more difficult and easier. On the one hand, I realized there are a lot of great people doing ‘business-y’ things.
Jung: They’re not half bad!
Dave: Yeah – they’re nice people. The same thing went on in business school as it did before in investment banking. You’re very involved in this world so you’re searching for a place within that world. I’m in business school so let me see what I can find in business. I got interested in pharmaceuticals, that felt like an important thing, medications to help people’s lives. I interned at Eli Lilly and had a really good time and wasn’t opposed to the idea of working in industry but came back realizing I wanted to be close to my family. That was a big contributing factor of getting away from federal law enforcement. I came back knowing that I didn’t want to live across the country – the federal government can send you anywhere they want, overseas, anywhere around the country.
Back to year two of business school. I was applying to a variety of different jobs — working for the federal government doing international aid in the finance world, different pharmaceutical jobs, medical devices. The closer I got in interviews to really committing myself in one of those paths, the more I realized I had a really hard time imagining myself happy and content and interested in doing those jobs.
Applying MBA Negotiations Class Frameworks to Job Decisions
Dave: I remember in negotiations class, where they taught us about BATNA, looking at alternatives. Don’t look at them in general terms. To realistically find your BATNA, you have to look at the specifics. What is my REAL alternative here? What would it really be like? When I was thinking in general terms it seemed interesting to me. But when I nailed down a specific job, and started really looking at what I would be doing every day, my eyes would start to glaze over, I just wasn’t that interested. I came to a decision point.. am I going to risk not doing well, or do well and not enjoy it, or will I take a leap of faith and do something very different from what I’ve been preparing for for the past five years? I decided it was time to try out a local police department. That was a really hard decision. To tear yourself from a path. It was hard to get over the concept in my mind that being a cop was not an appropriate career choice for someone who has degrees from top schools. But I started looking at what I wanted to be doing and now thankfully I have a strong background and an MBA so I’m sure if I don’t like it, I can find something else. So I went ahead and applied for police jobs.
Jung: When it got down to the level of what I want to be doing day-to-day, working as a cop was still pulling you, more interesting for you?
Dave: For me a big issue was what is going to hold my interest. You can look at things in very grandiose terms about justice and helping people – yes that matters – but if it’s not something that interests you, you’re not going to be good at it, then you’re not going to want to do it every day. I talked to people who were in law enforcement, went on ride-alongs and thought, this is interesting, this I could do every day. If it holds your interest, in your mind it’s something worth doing.
A Career in Line with Core Values
Jung: It sounds like it’s so in line with your values – equality, justice, helping people, what I know of your strong sense of right and wrong, all those things. It’s a good fit for what’s at your core.
Dave: I do perceive it as being a good match. Those things are important to me and I just can’t get away from them. Wherever I was, whenever I heard stories about things that sounded so wrong, even smaller things, it would make me so mad and I would want to do something about it.
This job is much more isolating because of the schedule. There’s a lot of negative scrutiny in the media which is not justified, but I’ll get to right a wrong or make someone pay for something they need to pay for.
Jung: It’s like you’re fighting the battle of injustices constantly.
Dave: You have some losses, but the wins are really a great feeling.
The Unexpected Isolation of Police Work
Jung: Wow. What are some of the things you’ve given up? What’s the isolation?
Dave: One is the schedule. Hopefully soon I’ll go up to the detective bureau and I can work more standard hours. But for the early years you work weekends and nights, and that’s when normal people get together. I’m sure you’ve seen me disappear from our social circle. I work typically 12-hour days and they’re unpredictable.
The other issue is more psychological than social. I think law enforcement, because you see such a different aspect of life than other people do, and you’re exposed to things that normal people don’t see, it really changes how you look at things. It’s difficult. I see an aspect of life that normal people don’t see and don’t understand. Also the fact that police are so visible and so often seen by normal people, people think they understand what you go through and what you do every day but they really don’t. There’s a disconnect between people’s perception of what you do and what you truly do, especially when you throw the media into the mix.
Common Misperceptions About Police Brutality
Jung: What do you want people to know about what you really do?
Dave: The most fundamental thing I want people to understand is that police officers are not a bunch of power hungry brutes. The people I work with are, for the most part, there are always people who will do their job better and less well, but the vast majority of people are intelligent, nice and people who really want to go out and help people. Not help the old lady get the cat out of the tree. Going after the bad guys and make them go to jail. On a given day, the people police officers interact with are not going to be happy with them, but we’re doing it so that the other people can live their lives with less fear. That’s what we’re trying to do, we’re not out there trying to make ourselves feel powerful. [laughs]
Jung: Is there something else there that’s isolating? Or is it just that people have a lot of assumptions?
Dave: There are a lot of accusations of police officers violating people’s rights. Unlawful search and seizure or unlawful use of force, police brutality. These are things where basically the police officer’s job is to go out there and find people who are doing bad things, and make them stop. You’re never going to get to 100% in terms of targeting, and the people you contact are ultimately either doing something bad or they’re not. And you’re going to do your best to deal with people positively and send them on their way, but many people will still feel you’re doing them wrong. Unfortunately there is no way around that. Some people will be offended. With the use of force thing, it’s hard for people who haven’t been in that position to understand that there are a lot of people out there who want to hurt and kill police officers. And even if they don’t want to, there are other people who are mentally unstable and will do it if given the opportunity. As much as we would prefer to be nice to everyone we meet, we’ve seen enough things and had enough bad experiences that we have to take actions to protect ourselves from actions that may seem innocent to other people.
Jung: I get it now. You have so much more information, your universe is much more complete about the real dangers that are out there, so your response is in accordance with that.
Dave: That’s a good way of putting it. And when you extract yourself from policing in a dangerous part of town to socializing, police officers can carry the chip on your shoulder from being on guard all the time. One of my coworkers was saying something about how there’s always people who don’t understand what the world is like. They have no idea that there are people trying to rob them, rape them or steal their car. It’s frustrating that the news media or whoever will turn around and make us the bad guy. That feeling sometimes creates a chip on the shoulder that you carry around.
How Cops are Like E.R. Doctors
Jung: Maybe there are some parallels to doctors. The resources have to be allocated so that you’re going after the biggest trauma, like the ER, there’s a reason why systems are set up the way they are.
Dave: I can definitely see the parallel with the ER – with doctors and nurses. You’re dealing with a life and death world where you need to make decisions quickly and no matter what, people will be unhappy. 80% of the people who leave will be pissed they had to wait 3 hours and if you are an ER doctor and you have limited information and it doesn’t turn out the way people wanted it to, you get sued.
Jung: Does it feel like you’re fighting an uphill battle that’s never-ending?
Dave: Yeah, unfortunately a lot of cops get overwhelmed with the feeling that you’ll never win. You’ll win these battles but you’ll never win the war.
Jung: How do you personally deal with that?
Dave: I try to derive as much satisfaction as I can from fighting the individual battles. I try not to allow the frustration over the feeling that the war is being lost overflow into my personal life. I can be negative about the direction the world is going in. My wife doesn’t let me watch the 10 o’clock news because I get so irritated.
Jung: It sounds like you’ve figured out your life purpose and there’s some aspect of fighting injustice.
Dave: Yeah I think that’s true.
Never Leaving Law Enforcement
Jung: That’s pretty cool.
Dave: It is cool. It’s true. Overall I am happy with my career choice. I’m not always happy with the details but I’m happy globally. When I get irritated or frustrated and think forget this, I’m going to do something different, I can’t imagine doing something outside of the law enforcement world. I can’t really imagine myself doing anything else.
Jung: Where do you see yourself in 10 years?
Dave: In 10 years I would really like to be a sergeant… As a sergeant, that’s a great opportunity to be a leader. You’re the person in charge of people and I can put to use a lot of the things I learned in business school and have a positive impact on the team. After that is where the big question mark is for me. Once I get there I will reevaluate and see if I want to be in charge of larger segments of the organization.
The Blue Collar Work Ethic Satisfaction
Jung: My sense is that you are going to want to be close to the justice fighting.
Dave: I see myself wanting to be close to the ground level. You have a case and you resolve it, make an arrest, make a prosecution. It has sort of a blue collar work ethic satisfaction. If I chose to move beyond that in the chain, it would be primarily for lifestyle reasons – you make more money and have more control over your time.
Jung: The thrill of the transaction – the close, the kill, getting the bad guy. Did you feel that in investment banking?
Dave: Yes, that’s part of the reason why I enjoyed the third year, starting transactions, I had a flood of completions, which is much more gratifying than doing pitches and proposals. There’s definitely that satisfaction. I wouldn’t use the word “kill” in police work, but there’s the same satisfaction in the completion of the case. That’s what keeps it interesting for me, having that beginning and the end and getting to move on to something different.
Jung: It sounds like you’re taking things one step at a time.
Dave: In law enforcement you have a lot of flexibility with where you’re going to take your career. I can more or less live my career in three-year segments. Most people come to a point in a job where they feel stagnant, and this is a job where there are so many different things you can do and you can reinvent yourself every few years with a very different aspect of policing.
Feeling Embarrassed: Making the Career Change Public
Jung: Coming out of Stanford business school, I remember the experience of having to tell people I was a life coach and I was practically whispering it. Did you have the same feeling talking about your job with other people?
Dave: I was nervous about bringing it up. It was just so different. I kind of felt embarrassed and awkward to talk about it, because the reaction was going to be “Why?” My close friends and family were supportive but in many cases skeptical. With people I didn’t know well, it was very awkward. ”What are you doing?” “I’m going to the police academy.” [laughs] I felt like I had to give excuses or reasons why.
Jung: Do you hide your business school background now?
Dave: People know. But I don’t advertise the fact that I went to business school and went to Stanford because the reaction I often get is, what the hell are you doing being a cop? But it’s less surprising being a cop with an MBA background than being an MBA going to be a cop. Now that I’m here I see that there are a number of other people at the department and in this profession with a lot of education, including from top schools. I work with very smart people, it’s not a career for someone who’s weak of mind. They tease me, but it’s not nearly as awkward as being at Stanford. I did get a lot of positive reactions that I was doing something different. But my heart rate would increase and I would always get nervous talking about it.
Jung: I hope I fell into the category of being encouraging.
Dave: You did. And I didn’t blame anyone who wasn’t immediately enthusiastic… when I first told my good friend Brian he said, “I think it’s a terrible idea”. It wasn’t because he was discouraging me, it’s because he cared about me. Same thing with my Dad. When I told him I wanted to join a local police department, he said if that’s what you want to do I support that but I have some serious concerns, and he spelled out what they were.
Don’t Let Perceptions or Achievement Restrict You
Jung: What is your advice for other people trying to figure out what they want to do?
Dave: I think the biggest piece of advice is to not worry too much about constraints that their background or perceptions of friends and family may place on them. There are lots of things we can do with our lives that are not necessarily on the same path as what we have been doing. It probably caused me more stress than necessary wondering about what other people would think. Why should achievement in a certain area restrict you from doing something else?
Jung: I can really relate to what you said about how you change your goals to fit your environment. There is so much possibility when you shatter that.
Dave: You create your own bubbles and you’re afraid to look outside of that bubble. If you can burst that bubble then it’s very liberating.
What’s Most Satisfying about the Job
Jung: What do you like best about your job?
Dave: What I like best is the satisfaction I get out of an arrest or making a case – out of holding somebody accountable for something bad they did to somebody else. That is a great feeling. Second in line would be the variety of what I do. It’s something different every day, and I get to challenge myself mentally and physically and that really keeps my interest.
Jung: You are a true agent of justice. How often do people thank you for what you do?
Dave: Not often, but every so often.
Jung: Well I want to thank you on behalf of parents. Becoming a parent it touches you more, what all the possibilities of bad things can happen, and I do appreciate what you and everyone does to protect our kids and our society… to know that there are people fighting for us is a nice feeling, there’s something that hearkens back to the olden days somehow.
Dave: One of my friends in investment banking told me he thought I was born in the wrong century.
Jung: I could see you out on a horse.
Dave: It is nice to be thanked by people who are looking at it from that perspective, parents especially. You think about the world that our children come into and all the horrible things that could happen to them, everything from getting hit by a drunk driver to getting molested and it’s nice to know that I’m trying to combat that.
Jung: You are fighting big battles. I think it’s so cool when people like you connect with your values and have the courage to connect with that and realize that. So many people only look at the set of possibilities right in front of their face at the career center. And everyone else is doing it.
Dave: Yes, here are all these options and everyone else is battling for them. What’s wrong with me? I need to find one that I like.
Not anymore! Officer Berry has been assigned to units targeting gangs and street crimes, and is currently working patrol in a large Bay Area police department.
What if you could burst the bubble of assumptions in your current environment about what you can do? What’s really possible?